What are mods?

[amber1195]

I see people on here that say that they can't do/say anything about mods because they're not allowed. But what exactly are mods, and why are they prohibited?

[Seabody]

We can't really talk about this, but basically, Mods are scripts that alter some aspect of gameplay. They are downloaded from "mod sites", and are short for "modifications". As such, they are extremely dangerous and against Forum Rules.

[amber1195]

Oh... Okay. Thank you, Seabody (:

[Seabody]

There's nothing saying you can't have mods in your game, just be aware that talk of them is prohibited, and they are not allowed in all site challenges.

[Pam]

Here, we're talking about third party modifications, which are programs written by people other than the game's designers, Electronic Arts.  They can be very dangerous and cause a great deal of damage to your game, which is why we don't allow them to be specifically discussed or linked here.

[VampirePlasma]

I am glad someone asked this because I didn't even know what mods were. I was embarrassed to ask..

[Pam]

I am glad someone asked this because I didn't even know what mods were. I was embarrassed to ask..

Please don't be embarrassed to ask anything.  We've all been new players and had to learn this stuff.  If you need to ask about something, go right ahead!

[sydney511]

One mod I know is (Edited - Hosfac). There are many but all dangerous, even if it's supposed to help gameplay.

[Hosfac]

Sorry, Sidney, but I had to modify your post.  As Pam said in this very thread:

They can be very dangerous and cause a great deal of damage to your game, which is why we don't allow them to be specifically discussed or linked here.

Another reason we don't allow them to be discussed is that there are many that are designed to break the game's Teen Rating.  As Carl's forum has always been a family friendly site, many of these mods are not exactly appropriate for discussion here, either.  The one you mentioned (almost by name, no less) did precisely this.

But the question was "What is a mod," not "What mods exist."  Since this wasn't specifically answered, allow me to do so:

A mod is a 3rd party program (meaning that it's coded by someone who doesn't work for the company that made the game) that modifies existing functions or adds new functionality to a game.  Most computer games have mods of some form or another available on the internet, and The Sims 3 is no different in this respect.  Mods for most games are relatively harmless, and in rare occasions actually add balance to a game that seriously lacked it.  However, mods for The Sims 3 are anything but harmless.

If you talk to mod creators for any length and ask questions about how things work (and I have done both), they will inevitably respond to at least one by saying "I don't understand why/how that works, but it does."  The Sims 3 is a very complex program.  This is why it has some comparatively hefty hardware requirements, and is one of the main reasons that it is a bit unstable.  It's easy to change one minor thing and have it alter how another completely unrelated process works...or break it entirely.  And this is all done by the people who wrote the game in the first place, and understand how it works better than anyone else possibly could.  Mods are written by someone other than these people, who may very well be inadvertently tampering with a system that they don't understand.

If anyone tells you that a mod for The Sims 3 is safe, they are lying to you.  For proof, all you need to do is look at the original forum thread where the download is available.  This thread will be 20-30 pages long (or even longer) with users asking the designer for help in solving the problems they are having with it.  They have also been directly linked to corrupted game saves and even corrupted game files, which can cause the game not to run at all.  

And this is not to even mention that, without exception, any time you download an authorized EA patch, every mod in existence becomes instantaneously obsolete.  You then have to remove them all, wait for the designer to upload an updated version of that mod, download it again and reinstall it.

To me, there is no possible "added functionality" that anyone could offer that would be worth all of this trouble.

[sydney511]

Sorry Hoscaf. I forgot about that rule. I'll review the rules in a few minutes. 

[VampirePlasma]

Whoa Hosfac, that is an exellent explanation. It helped understand and scared me a little when you said "can cause the game not to run at all." I will not be putting this in my game anytime soon.

[Saltypaws]

If you guys think that you have problems with your game now, with just the glitches that came with the patches, go to the sims3 forum and read some of the posts on there by people that have downloaded mods in their game.  Then, they go on the forum asking for help because their game is virtually un-playable.  I guess the people that design these mods play it up and of course their website is full of supposed fixes and they might work for a while, but in the long run, they totally break down the game mechanics, therefore, rendering the game where it doesn't play at all.  I have seen some bizarre pictures on that forum and they are crying that they "just don't know what to do".  Well, for starters, don't install those mods in the first place.  When I first got the game, I went to a couple of those sites and thought, "wow, that sounds or looks pretty good".  Then I read the procedure of installing them and then having to uninstall them every time a patch or EP came out.  I decided, nope, that wasn't for me and then when I started on this forum, I was so glad I had not decided to use them.  It just boils down to this, "don't use mods".  Hosfac gave an excellent answer to the question.  I just thought I would put my thoughts in here.

[VampirePlasma]

I just went through a Mod site I went through all 50 pages of mods looking at comments and they all had some some kind of problem! Some of them were smart, things that I would love to see like opening windows, and CAS modification that really had me. But there were only problems in those pages!
Anyways thanks Hoscaf for explaining. Lesson; don't touch them. Thanks.

[Seabody]

I've seen one mod that really appealed to me, to the point I nearly downloaded it. But, I thought about it carefully. You see, this particular mod would just completely ruin the concept of gameplay. Without going into too much detail, it acted almost like (but not totally like) the familyfunds cheat.

[Pam]

I hope you didn't download it, Seabody.  And if you want something that acts like the familyfunds cheat, then just use the familyfunds cheat to start with.

@Hosfac:

That really was a great explanation.  I'm going to sticky this topic so it will remain at the top of this board for anyone who wants to know about what mods do.

[Seabody]

I hope you didn't download it, Seabody.  And if you want something that acts like the familyfunds cheat, then just use the familyfunds cheat to start with.

Thankfully, I didn't. It seemed like it would ruin gameplay.

[Carl]

Yeah, that's a great explanation of why most of us don't fool with them. With the game as unstable as it is, I don't need another reason for a problem to crop up.

[Sportsfan]

When I first joined this forum I was actually getting confused between mods and moderators (because sometimes it was shortened to mods). I don't like playing with cheats in my game (I only play with them if I'm testing something) and as far as I can tell mods are just really bad cheats.

[Seabody]

as far as I can tell mods are just really bad cheats.

Well, that's partly true. The mod above was an almost-cheat, that messed with money and added an interaction to an object.
I'm going to stop talking now, before I break Forum Rules.

[Metropolis Man]

...as far as I can tell mods are just really bad cheats.

That's a generalization. I'm sure a lot of mods fall into that category, but I'm sure there are other well-meaning mod makers who release their designs with the intent on fixing the bugs that EA has yet to address.

[Pam]

When I first joined this forum I was actually getting confused between mods and moderators (because sometimes it was shortened to mods).

I get confused, too, when Carl says "mods" for moderators.  (Sorry, Carl.)  I try to spell out moderators to help avoid the confusion.

[Sportsfan]

I get confused, too, when Carl says "mods" for moderators.  (Sorry, Carl.)  I try to spell out moderators to help avoid the confusion.

I didnt mean to single out Carl, a lot of the members here, myself included, do that too. It was just weird at first to read someone's post that says "the mods here are great" and I can't help but think 'I thought this site was against mods.'
Thanks for the great explanation, Hosfac. Its probably the best on the Internet.

[Natsuko]

Mod is for short modification, meaning that the mod alters the gameplay somehow. Mods are dangerous- it's highly suggested that you DON'T use mods.

[Hosfac]

...and as far as I can tell mods are just really bad cheats.

Some of them are, however some of them add completely new things to the game.

That's a generalization. I'm sure a lot of mods fall into that category, but I'm sure there are other well-meaning mod makers who release their designs with the intent on fixing the bugs that EA has yet to address.

A lot of them try to do just this.  However, it still boils down to the fact that there are a lot of workings in the game that they don't totally understand.  I'm not about to fault anyone for trying, and there are some people for whom these mods work well for.  But like I said:  the original download thread for Sims 3 mods typically turn into technical support threads with several hundred posts.  To me, the potential risk far outweighs the possible benefits.

[Pam]

To me, the potential risk far outweighs the possible benefits.

I agree 100%, Hosfac.  Well said.

[jeanamariex3]

I know people talk about skin hair and CAS mods. Are those under "modifications" or are they still CC?

[Seabody]

I know people talk about skin hair and CAS mods. Are those under "modifications" or are they still CC?

Skin and hair are CC. CAS mods - well, it depends on what kind.

[TheChronicR]

Skin and hair are CC. CAS mods - well, it depends on what kind.

CAS mods are regular mods, they modify an aspect of the game.

[Hosfac]

If it adds an item to the game, then it's custom content.  If it changes how something in the game works, it's a mod.

[Pam]

If it adds an item to the game, then it's custom content.  If it changes how something in the game works, it's a mod.

Also, if the custom content is made my someone other than Electronic arts, it's known as third party Custom Content.

[MissPlumbBob]

Thank you, moderators and others, for this information.

[Natsuko]

Yeah, thanks. I never realised that. And I learned alot. Recently, it's been more tempting to download Custom Content. But, I've stayed true to myself, and haven't downloaded any.

[folcon]

There is another reason I am leery of downloading mods.  Simply put, there are people out there that have nothing better to do then mess up other people's computers.  Knowing the popularity of mods, they will create a mod for download, but in fact it is a cover to put various spy-ware and malware, or viruses on your computer.  So while you think you are getting a mod that lets you do _________, in fact you are giving other people access to your computer.  Then again, that's a risk you take with any download.  Which is part of why the only stuff I ever download are patches/official content, and manga/doujin that a few friends of mine post on another forum I visit.

[Serena Darrin]

There is another reason I am leery of downloading mods.  Simply put, there are people out there that have nothing better to do then mess up other people's computers.  Knowing the popularity of mods, they will create a mod for download, but in fact it is a cover to put various spy-ware and malware, or viruses on your computer.  So while you think you are getting a mod that lets you do _________, in fact you are giving other people access to your computer.  Then again, that's a risk you take with any download.  Which is part of why the only stuff I ever download are patches/official content, and manga/doujin that a few friends of mine post on another forum I visit.

Oh, yes, if you are going to download anything, virus-scan it first! There are some mod sites that do exactly that, and it's pathetic.  Not to say they all do, but still.  Download with caution, most definetly. 

[TheChronicR]

Oh, yes, if you are going to download anything, virus-scan it first! There are some mod sites that do exactly that, and it's pathetic.  Not to say they all do, but still.  Download with caution, most definetly. 

I third that! Virus scan each time you download something. You never know!

[Seabody]

There is another reason I am leery of downloading mods.  Simply put, there are people out there that have nothing better to do then mess up other people's computers.  Knowing the popularity of mods, they will create a mod for download, but in fact it is a cover to put various spy-ware and malware, or viruses on your computer.  So while you think you are getting a mod that lets you do _________, in fact you are giving other people access to your computer.  Then again, that's a risk you take with any download.  Which is part of why the only stuff I ever download are patches/official content, and manga/doujin that a few friends of mine post on another forum I visit.

And that is a perfect example of why I only download anything from people I trust. For instance, If I didn't trust Ausette, I wouldn't download Suits Me. (Pattern)

[TerranRich]

Would a custom career technically be created content? Or a modification? Or a little of both? Outside of this site, I deal with custom careers, which don't alter data, only add data to the game. Technically they don't alter any of the game's contents, much like clothing does, and simply adds an option to a rabbithole (stadium, city hall, etc.) to have an additional career.

[folcon]

That would still be a mod Terran.  It is still a change in the gameplay.

[TerranRich]

Gotcha, understood. Thanks!

[Serena Darrin]

It's not that mods are -necessarily- bad, I use a few myself (bug-fixes and the like). It's just a case of download with caution.  There is one mod/CC site I do use that I mostly trust (even that gets scanned, just in case),  what little else I might use gets scanned several times and examined carefully before it goes on my system, and that's only if I really, really want it.  

But I'm ok with that.  I can completely, on the other hand, understand why people might not be.

It's just a case of doing -a lot- of research, and doing, in the end, what you're comfortable with.

And one of my rules is that if it's not something that's a .package file in the 'mods' folder, I don't use it.  I want to easily be able to pull everything out of my game in half a second if something goes weird.

And Terran, I actually haven't heard much good news about custom careers. I'd be -really- careful with those.

[Pam]

I don't want this to turn into a debate about whether mods are good or bad or somewhere in between.  So, because the original question has been thoroughly answered, I'm going to lock this thread.  Thank you to everyone who contributed. 

[Leto85]

I know this topic is locked and I could ask Hosfac (seems he knows the most of this subject) by pm, but I like to have other people read this too, for incase they are wondering the same thing.

If I copy and modify a furniture from The Sims 3 to a complete new look (3D editing) and change it's values (worth, environment and other rating) this is called a mod, or Custom Content?

And also Hosfac, I once have played a videogame called Jurassic Park Operation Genesis where you could build a dinosaur park and let people visit it. The amount of stuff you could have per island (savefile) was limited and so where the dinosaur species and number of dinosaurs, but there was a editable file with numbers that could be change to increase this, the ConstantIni file. If you change such a file to 'increase' (opinion) the gameplay, is that concidered a mod too? I am wondering because in that case you don't install anything into the game.

Dear fellow mods (moderators, not modifications): If this question is irrelevant, please don't just delete it but bring it to my attention so I can copy it to a PM to Hosfac.

[Pam]

I'm sorry if I locked this prematurely, Leto.  I'll unlock it, but would like for everyone to refrain from making this a debate about whether mods are ok or not.

As for your first question, Leto, about the furniture...  what you describe is third party custom content.  It means a third party (you) has made an item for the game.  This goes for any game item that is made by someone other than EA.  It's not a game mod because it doesn't change how the game is played.  It doesn't do anything to Story Progression or the way Sims have babies, for example.  I hope this helps.

[Leto85]

I'm sorry if I locked this prematurely, Leto.  I'll unlock it, but would like for everyone to refrain from making this a debate about whether mods are ok or not.

As for your first question, Leto, about the furniture...  what you describe is third party custom content.  It means a third party (you) has made an item for the game.  This goes for any game item that is made by someone other than EA.  It's not a game mod because it doesn't change how the game is played.  It doesn't do anything to Story Progression or the way Sims have babies, for example.  I hope this helps.

Ah, yes okey. It indeed doesn't change the gameplay so it sounds pretty logical.
Now I'm just waiting for Hosac to stop by.

I'm waiting... and waiting... and waiting...

[Seabody]

And also Hosfac, I once have played a videogame called Jurassic Park Operation Genesis where you could build a dinosaur park and let people visit it. The amount of stuff you could have per island (savefile) was limited and so where the dinosaur species and number of dinosaurs, but there was a editable file with numbers that could be change to increase this, the ConstantIni file. If you change such a file to 'increase' (opinion) the gameplay, is that concidered a mod too? I am wondering because in that case you don't install anything into the game.

I'm not Hosfac, but I believe that's a mod.

[Serena Darrin]

And also Hosfac, I once have played a videogame called Jurassic Park Operation Genesis where you could build a dinosaur park and let people visit it. The amount of stuff you could have per island (savefile) was limited and so where the dinosaur species and number of dinosaurs, but there was a editable file with numbers that could be change to increase this, the ConstantIni file. If you change such a file to 'increase' (opinion) the gameplay, is that concidered a mod too? I am wondering because in that case you don't install anything into the game.

In a technical sense it would be a mod, as that is what mod files do, they change part of the code of the game.  In that case you're just doing it yourself instead of downloading a file someone else made to do it.

I would assume it would be treated the same way as a mod for the challenges and such, simply because all players have to be on the same playing field.   (As it was explained to me, that was also the reason for why all players officially doing challenges had to be patched to the same level).

[jeanamariex3]

Back to my question a while back, the reason why I asked if certian CAS content are mods, is from Pam's Sims 3 Blog (Spoop's Sims 3 World) she mentioned "this is what happens when you use hair mods." That got me a bit confused.

[Leto85]

Back to my question a while back, the reason why I asked if certian CAS content are mods, is from Pam's Sims 3 Blog (Spoop's Sims 3 World) she mentioned "this is what happens when you use hair mods." That got me a bit confused.

Can you post a picture about it? Because I don't understand what you mean.

[jeanamariex3]

Can you post a picture about it? Because I don't understand what you mean.

It's the second to last photo. She was talking about her article she wrote for the guide regarding the "Surrounded by Family LTW."

[imaGleek]

It's the second to last photo. She was talking about her article she wrote for the guide regarding the "Surrounded by Family LTW."

I think that would be considered custom content. But, that suprised me. Did PAM used to use CC?

[Leto85]

I think that would be considered custom content. But, that suprised me. Did PAM used to use CC?

Pam and CC? That's just like fire and water: doesn't match.

[Pam]

Well, if you notice the date of that post, it was in October 2009, which was just a few months after the game came out.  I didn't know anything about CC when I first started as Sims 3 is my first venture into Sims.  I don't remember how I got that particular hairstyle.  My best guess is that it came with a Sim in a house I downloaded from the Exchange.  It's possible I downloaded the hairstyle from somewhere, but I promise...  I didn't really know what I was doing.

[Serena Darrin]

Oh, I know that annoyance, when you download a house/sim and then you get something you didn't want or even know about. That's why I almost never download houses/sims (except from here, since I know they're all CC free.)

It's really annoying, especially if the sim/house in question has a low-quality piece of CC, which makes it even worse, (and is unfortunately all too common).  I'm sorry to hear that happened to you, Pam, it really is annoying.

PS: That pic is really funny!

[Pam]

I definitely learned my lesson.  As I became more educated, I learned that I could have ended up much worse.  Now I refuse to download anything from the Exchange except pattern.

[Chuckles_82]

Ok, a similar question to the one about modifying EA furniture. If someone makes a file that makes a game object available, that wasn't available to buy, like the fast food truck, the parking space, or the missing high rise buildings, is that considered a mod, or custom content?

[kiko94]

If they make them available I believe it would be considered a mod, since food truck is a game play element, but if they create new ones, those would be CC

[Pam]

I agree with Kiko.  If you're talking about a program that makes certain EA created items available that weren't prior to installing the program, that would be a mod because you're changing how the game is played.  However, if you take the existing EA created item and do weird things to it so that it looks different, then that's third party custom content.

[Chuckles_82]

The 'mods' that I know of alter the code for the object, which is the same kind of thing you would do for changing the price, comfort level etc for custom content. At least, that is if it works in a similar fashion to [Name of mod removed.  -Pam] did for sims 2. I can't imagine it would be too much different, though I haven't made any CC for sims 3, so I wouldn't know for sure. I would have thought it would be classed as CC that replaces original game content. It does, however, get placed in the 'mods' folder, so perhaps that is how you draw the line. Because ultimately whether you change a bed to have +++, an environment score of 10, stress relief 10 and Sleep 10, and make it only §1, or simply make it available, you're still only altering the object information. Both would change the gameplay.

[Pam]

Although this thread is about the definition of mods, please be careful not to use the actual names or link to any mod site.  The rules still apply here.

[Chuckles_82]

My apologies Pam, I didn't realise that was included. It's not a mod, it's a tool for creating custom content. It wasn't, however, created by EA.

[Pam]

My apologies Pam, I didn't realise that was included. It's not a mod, it's a tool for creating custom content. It wasn't, however, created by EA.

No worries, Chuckles.  Even if it's not an actual mod, I think it best if we leave the name out.

[Leto85]

This post keep changing and changing. A few days ago I did found it locked, yesterday it was unlocked and also removed from being sticky and it's back on now.
Though this post continue staying interesting.

What about making a list in the first post to note down every difference between CC and mods and extern created programs to create one of them? Than it will be easy to recognize for all new people here to see the difference.
If there are still questions, a new post can be made here.

[Chuckles_82]

Oh yes, that would be very helpful! Great idea Leto! It would be great to know exactly what is considered a mod in this forum, because I see a bit of difference in other places, and I for one am definitely confused by what the definition is here.

[Pam]

Oh yes, that would be very helpful! Great idea Leto! It would be great to know exactly what is considered a mod in this forum, because I see a bit of difference in other places, and I for one am definitely confused by what the definition is here.

What is the definition that you know from other places?

[dimy77]

I'm just going to give my honest opinion here without trying to offend anyone or trying to start a flame war.... I will respect the rules of this forum, but with that said I think there's a lot of negativity being said here about mods that is just not fair.

A lot of games have a very strong and dedicated mod community, a lot of those are actually supported actively by the developers. Why? Because smart developers understand that an active mod community can increase the life time of their product significantly. I'm not here to promote the use of mods, but to say they are "dangerous" is just a lie.

Like with anything on the internet you need to be careful and know what you are doing... or ask others for help if you're not sure. If you do that, there's nothing dangerous about it.

I'm sorry if this does offend anyone, like I said when I started this, it's not my intention. Just making a discussion and that's what a forum is all about.

[mtglady]

Number five (5) of our forum's rules state:  We assume no responsibility for any damage to your game or computer as a result of using mods, hacks, and/or third party custom content. Many sites which host them also offer code designed to break the game's Teen rating. As a family friendly site, we cannot endorse any sites which link to such content. DO NOT discuss or link to any mods on this forum.  
  
OK folks, having stated that hopefully this will settle this topic's question and end the debate.  
  
There are four types of 'mods' (or hacks) that creators make.  A very small percentage may be safe but most can be very harmful, especially if you have never used mods before, don't know the creator or if you don't thoroughly research the product.  Some Mods may work for some and not work for others.
 
Mods are mostly designed to correct what some see as errors in the original release or to add life to the game with new challenges.  If a creator doesn't continue to update their mod with the release of new EP's/SP's then you may find you can no longer play your game, even after removing the mod.  You may also find that none of your save files will work either.  
  
NOTE:  Mods can be packaged as both .sims3pack and .package formats so don't think it is not a mod if you can install it via the launcher.    
  

• Core Mods - A mod which dramatically alters the game.  This type of mod can fix many of the game's flaws as well as add things like new traits.  For example: A slider created to give a Sim muscles (before EA added it to the game) was a type of core mod.  This type of mod can conflict with the game play or with other mods.  If you install more than one created ‘core’ mod at a time in your game, you face having major game-breaking issues.
• Tuning Mods - A mod that can change a variety of things - from how fast the Sims' bladders fill, to what time the curfew for kids is - as well as no more gagging, spewing etc.  These can conflict with other mods or with the game play itself.  They can break your game too.
• Script Mods - These mods can cause an older video card to fry along with your computer too if you are not careful.  This mod actually manipulates the game coding to enable things such as romance and marriage that break the teen rating of the game.  These are usually very dangerous types of mods and can conflict with other mods.
• Object Mods - This type of mod is always an object that uses a custom script. The most basic sort of object mod is a simple clone of the original object rigged with some new interactions.  An example of this type of mod would be like making a dishwasher work on a community lot.  Again, this mod can conflict with another aspect of game play or with another mod.

 
  
As for CC - this is custom content added to your game as either a sims3pack or a .package file.  These files can be as simple as changing the color of a chair or actually creating (cloning) of a sleeveless shirt originally made by EA and adding sleeves.  There are three types of custom content: EA CC; EA partner CC (T-Mobile & Dr. Pepper); and Third-Party CC.  The last types is what you want to watch out for. If it just changes the color or pattern then you should be OK, but if it changes the object to a new look then be careful.  You also have to watch out for items marked as 'default' as this will change the original item in your game and not add it as an additional item.  
  
@Leto - if you copy and modify game furniture from The Sims 3 to a complete new look (3D editing) it would be considered Third-Party Custom Content that you would have to be careful with.  Even if you took a high fence and made it shorter or a short fence and made it taller.  Another type of Third-Party CC is to create an entire new object (meshing).   Please keep in mind that both cloning and creating a new mesh are Third-Party CC that can cause your Sims to morph and can still ruin your game.  Remember the 'Dreaded Doll'?    
 
@Chuckles_82 and @Leto - changing the value of an object or even changing a bed to have a +++ rating is not a mod.  It is only Third-Party CC as it is customizing it for your own use.  It is very similar to using a cheat to obtain the same thing as long as you know what you are doing.  You should also NOT pass these items on to anyone else as it may install as a defaulted item.    
    
Then I noticed there was a question regarding Unlocked and Re-categorized content.  Most times this type of content will not cause any issues with your game.  EA added the content but for some reason didn't activate it.  This would be like the uniforms that are unlocked as you advance in a career.  And notice I did say 'most times' since EA may have kept some items locked for future EP/SP use.      
  
I hope this long post clarified this for everyone.  Please remember that the challenges on this forum do not allow the use of mods or CC, so if you are going to participate you will have to remove them.
 
We can't make the decision for you whether to use mods or CC - that is a risk that only you can decide to take.
 
mtglady
 

[Saltypaws]

Thank you so much for the detailed description, mtglady.  I honestly think that this thread should be locked, because any further discussion is pointless.  There are many wonderful descriptions of mods on here and I think all questions have been answered.  So
if anyone wants to use mods or third party CC, that is their right to do so.  You can almost make any file a .sims3pack file, so just because it says that, does not mean it is a good sims3 file.    There is alot of useful information on this thread and everyone has described mods brilliantly.   

[Pam]

Sounds good to me, Salty.  Thread is locked.